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Sarah Robinson
Member
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# Posted: 24 Feb 2007 06:13
I purchased and watched Black Gold last night. I am a founder and director of a coffee company in South Africa. I have also worked for Starbucks as a barista and other small coffee shops in several countries. I was very disappointed with the one-sided views expressed and the many inaccuracies that plagued the film.
My company only purchases single origin African coffee and we are a completely fair trade company. I know a lot about coffee and the coffee market. The discussions in the movie about how much is paid for 1kg of red cherries is also not correct. 1kg of RED CHERRIES still needs to be processed and sorted and approximately 5kg of red cherries are needed to make up 1kg of green beans! There is then more weight loss during the husking and then the roasting so by the time someone in the west purchases 1kg of roasted coffee it has probably required almost 7kg of red cherries.
In working for and with Starbucks I have always been impressed by their business practises. Starbucks is the world's poster-child for coffee exploitation which has purely come about through the fact that they are successful. Starbucks always pays above market price for their coffee beans and are involved in social development projects in every community from which is purchases their coffee. I purchase my Ethiopian coffee from the same region Starbucks purchases theirs. Starbucks has done amazing work in that community incuding the building of bridges, schools, and basic infrastructure.
I could literally go on and on about the inacurracies in your film. There are so many. It's always easy to throw stones at the man on the white horse which you do with Starbuck. They are successful and operate in a way that does not advertise and shout their good deeds, so you have assumed they are operating under-the-table and taking advantage of their position in the world coffee market. They are definitely not!!
I hope people are able to think beyond this propoganda and think for themselves and really do the research on what the coffee industry is like. Sure, there are changes that need to me made and improvements are required, but there are many, many coffee companies working to do just that, and Starbucks is leading the pack!
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Lazarina
Member
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# Posted: 27 Feb 2007 22:15
Well, Sarah, all due respect to Starbucks for making these crucial steps towards more ethical trading, but perhaps we should also examine more closely your comment about "operating in a way that does not advertise and shout their good deeds". (full quote of your statement below).
Today, prompted by seeing the film, I paid a visit to the nearest Seattle's Best (owned by Starbucks, for those of you who are unaware). I inquired about the brew of the day and whether fair trade coffee was available. The first barista I spoke with was not familiar with the terms "fair trade" and did not know what I was asking for. The second barista available referred to the company brochure (this is a true story!) to refresh her memory and subsequently spent the time and the effort to provide me with an organic fair trade alternative. It was a compromise on both sides, however. I was interested in purchasing a cappuccino, which is made with espresso. Apparently, no fair trade espresso blend is offered at Seattle's Best. So the barista offered me a Cafe Ole, which she added a lot of foam to in order to make it resemble a cappuccino. I appreciated her service while I was still amazed at the lack of awareness amongst the baristas behind the counter.
And I couldn't help but notice that the concept of Fair Trade coffee was not in any way mentioned or even visually present as an alternative among the advertised products. If one had exceptionally good vision, they could detect a tiny fair trade logo, a strained exercise to the naked eye from where they are physically standing, next to the choice of coffees for that day. Turns out the fair trade coffee brew is not even available on a daily basis.
So Sarah, how can you account for this anomaly? It seems like Starbucks and the like only have the options out there, deeply buried in their menu out of embarrassment, and not real commitment to their "socially responsible "practices?
I am not speaking about "shouting and advertising" about the fair trade alternative. I am speaking about something much more basic: making the alternative simply visible to the average consumer. My experience today speaks louder than your rhetoric.
-Lazarina
blThere are so many. It's always easy to throw stones at the man on the white horse which you do with Starbuck. They are successful and operate in a way that does not advertise and shout their good deeds, so you have assumed they are operating under-the-table and taking advantage of their position in the world coffee market. They are definitely not!!
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Sarah Robinson
Member
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# Posted: 3 Mar 2007 06:46
Lazarina
Thank you for your reply and comments. Firstly, although Starbucks owns Seattle's Best, I am not sure exactly what role they play in training their staff etc. So I can't really comment on potential differences between a Starbucks store and a Seattle's Best store.
Secondly, in order for a coffee to display the Fair Trade logo on its bag, there are a number of standards that have to be met, not only by the coffee company, but also by the coffee farm. The coffee farm itself has to be certified. This certification costs the farmers a lot of money, time, and resources. In some ways it is more of a burden to get the certification than an opportunity. To my knowledge, Starbucks only has one certified Fair Trade coffee available, but that does not mean that their other coffees are not purchased in a fair way. My coffee company, for example, does not have a "certified Fair Trade" coffee, but we operate using fair trade practices and more. We purchase our coffee from small farmers who cannot afford to jump through all the hoops required to get the certification, but we still pay them above market price for their coffee and do work etc in their communities, which is what Starbucks does too.
Personally I think the Fair Trade certification is very good, but the white and black label on a bag of coffee does not mean that those are the ONLY fair trade coffees available. Coffee can be purchased in a more than fair way without displaying the well-known logo.
If you have the time and the will, visit a Starbucks store and speak to the manager or regional manager about their coffee purchasing practices. When I did my training with Starbucks I specifically asked about fair trade coffees as I too could not find "certified fair trade" coffees in our shop. But it was explained that Starbucks might not have their coffees certified but they always pay a fair price. In fact, as I have grown and learned more about the global coffee industry, studies have shown that Starbucks is actually the highest paying coffee purchaser in the world! I have traveled to many coffee producing countries and have spoken to many farmers who have worked directly with Starbucks and they have nothing but praise for their practices and commitments.
At the recent East African Fine Coffees Association conference in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia, Starbucks was the key note speaker and it was so exciting to hear about their plans for investing more into African coffee producing countries. I can honestly say that I have seen first hand the good this mega-company is doing.
So I ask all viewers of Black Gold and other type documentaries please look beyond the screen and clever editing, there is always a much bigger picture out there.
Thank you....
Sarah
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Parker Johnson
Member
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2007 19:14
Hi Sarah and Lazarins,
I enjoyed the discussion you are having, but I am not as knowledgable about the coffee industry. Your conversation remains vague and unsubstantiated by numbers or data. For example, what is "fair" about fair trade or fire price? I am trying to learn more about the two concepts, but I need examples using actual prices and quantities. What is paid and earned by each of the stakeholders in the farming, production and distribution of coffee? How do each fair regarding "living wage" or "fair wage" in their respective countries? What is the quality of life? What percentage of the profit does each derive from the final product (received by the consumer as a cup of coffee)?
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neohxc
Member
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2007 03:26 - Edited by: neohxc
What I would like to know is if Starbucks Practices are so "fair" then why didn't they disclose thier "fair" practices in the movie. They declined for 6 months and you stand defending them as if you were in the higher ups. Who are you anyway and how can you substantiate everything starbucks says? You aren't in the executive offices. People are DYING in africa. Starbucks can straighten up and help or keep on singing thier own praises. The truth of the matter is everyone gains when africa is cut out the way the WTO has cut them out. Same story different day. Exploit the poor and get rich.
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fairtradecoffeeco
Member
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# Posted: 30 Mar 2007 08:18
When I did my training with Starbucks I specifically asked about fair trade coffees as I too could not find "certified fair trade" coffees in our shop. But it was explained that Starbucks might not have their coffees certified but they always pay a fair price.
While there are non-certified products which do abide by fair trade principles, certification ensures a vendor is not simply claiming fair practises without any independent verification. Maybe Starbucks' other coffee is fair, maybe it isn't. I'm not going to take Starbucks' word for it though. That is the value of the label.
The rhetoric about farmers having to jump through hoops is also misleading, especially regarding coffee farming. If there is a report to back this up (or indeed the claim that Starbucks is the highest paying coffee purchaser in the world!, it would be worthwhile linking to it.
Parker... the price is decided by an independent organisation known as the Fairtrade Labelling Organisation (FLO). It is actually a minimum price which is set, so that if the market is booming the farmers are still better off with Fairtrade buyers than the global coffee market.
In the meantime, I recommend people whose first contact with Fair Trade is this movie, check out one of the FTA websites URL for more information and the logic behind the label.
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David Barrar
Member
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# Posted: 11 Apr 2007 18:33
I think starbucks should have had some part in the film. The fact that they declined to participate makes them look like the bad guy. If what you say about starbucks is true, then why didnt they stand up and say so on the film? And if not in the film, they why not in advertising or other labeling? If this message is a big enough impact, it will hurt starbucks as a business, and they only why they will get costumers to come back is proof of how they help coffee farmers. The amount of money starbucks makes i dont know for sure, but they could return some profits to African communities to provide basic needs of life. I think a good direction for many of these global companies should be to help the world in anyway. Such as, i think i heard about Burger King or McDonalds starting a program to purchase beef from farm that treat the animals more humanly. Or companies can do something to reduce the total carbon emissions that result from how their company runs, and in turn use this to attract new costumers. Starbucks making efforts to help with the fair trade of coffee will improve their image and help them as a business, other wise the world will wake up and reject them.
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Etienne von Bertrab
Member
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# Posted: 14 Apr 2007 00:08
Hi Sarah, Lazarina, Parker and other contributors to this debate,
I don't agree with the claim that Black Gold is one-sided (Sarah) and have a few things to add to this discussion. (I am a partner of a coffee-producer cooperative in Chiapas, Mexico, called Unión de Ejidos de la Selva, and opened one of their coffee shops (La Selva Café) in Guadalajara. These coffee shops are an initiative of the cooperative members themselves, and are a means by which the approx. 1,800 families in Chiapas benefit directly from a larger portion of the added value, as they roast and brand their own organic coffee.)
Starbucks coffee shops started operating in Mexico a couple of years ago. Since they arrived to Guadalajara (and there are around 10 shops), I've continuously tested how they "offer" their shade-grown organic and fair trade coffee from Chiapas. The result is pretty much what Lazarina experienced with Seattle's Best: I have not encountered a staff member capable of telling if I can try a fairly-traded coffee in one of their mugs. In my experience most of the times they don't even have this kind of coffee for sale. Of course their brochures don't say just how little fair trade coffee they buy. This is only one side of the picture. Numerous reports emerged as the way Starbucks and Conservation International entered into Chiapas, obtaining producers-lists in a doubtful way and, in the process of engagement of individual producers, they were asked to abandon their involvement in their traditional cooperatives. This means that despite an above-market price their "fair trade" coffee isn't at all, as the producer's capacity to organise themselves is being hindered not helped, by being a "partner" of Starbucks: They are less in control of their own future. Many farmers are desperate, and of course the price seems attractive in the short term. In a country where awareness of these issues is still quite low, Starbucks is growing steadily and it seems that they will improve their target opening more stores (around 300) in less time. Unaware citizens and customers are the real parners of Starbucks.
The situation of African producers, and particularly the Ethiopian coffee farmers, is by far more desperate. And it seems that Starbucks just doesn't care (of course). A recent paper by Douglas B Holt from the Oxford Saïd Business School, and Oxfam, have documented how the company is using its muscle power to hinder Ethiopian government's efforts to trademark the country's most valuable coffee brands (Holt's document is actually posted in another section of this Forum, and the reader can find out more about this issue here: http://www.oxfam.org.uk/applications/blogs/pressof fice/2006/10/oxfam_responds_to_national_cof.html).
Regarding Parker Johnson's request for more information to understand the unfairness of the conventional coffee trade (and what fair-trade should mean), I've found the report "Mugged. Poverty in your Coffee Cup" by Oxfam a very good source. It is available in their site. Oc course visiting coffee-producers in the South and having a first-hand grasp of their realities, is a good alternative for everyone.
I congratulate the makers of the film, and welcome this debate.
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Emily
Member
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# Posted: 15 Apr 2007 21:29
This is solely a response to one of the topics brought up here, and is not meant to "choose sides" in this debate.
I am in training to become a Coffee Master at Starbucks. One of the things I've learned that most Starbucks partners don't realize is that the our Fair Trade Certified Coffee is available everyday. Cafe Estima is available upon request, even if it is not the Coffee of the Day.
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bluesamboy
Member
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# Posted: 10 May 2007 22:59
Why all the bad press for Starbucks? Should we not be targeting much bigger companies like Nestle and Proctor & Gamble who buy and roast so much more cheap nasty coffee?
Starbucks are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. If they had taken part in the film I'm sure this site would be full of people commenting on what a great "PR" exercise Starbucks pulled off.
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Sarah Robinson
Member
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# Posted: 18 May 2007 22:38
Thank you for all the replies and comments to my initial post. It is very interesting to read the difference perspectives and ideas regarding coffee and especially Starbucks. I shall attempt to address some of the issues raised in this forum.
Parker Johnson's: There is a lot of data available regarding the stats and numbers of coffee sales and profits etc. However, it must be kept in mind that this data varies from country to country depending on things like PPP (Purchasing Power Parity). Try the following websites which may give you the required information:
www.coffeeuniverse.com
www.thecoffeeguide.org
Neohxc: I don't know why Starbucks declined to be interviewed for Black Gold. It does make sense that if their practices were sound they would have no problem disclosing them in the film. However, after viewing Michael Moore's documentaries and seeing the clever editing used to convey the desired message, I can also understand why Starbucks would decline to make a comment as it could very well be edited or changed to suit the film. I found Black Gold to be plagued with sneaky editing in order to speak their language and unfortunately that dishonesty as such taints their message as well.
Fairtradecoffeeco: My opinions about Starbucks' fair trade practices came about while working for the company, but those opinions were really established in me once I entered the coffee world on my own and visited the coffee farms and talked to the farmers and walked over the bridges Starbucks had built for the communities. I don't have a report to back up what I have seen with my own eyes and what the farmers have told me first hand about their interactions with Starbucks. I guess there is a lot of the "take my word for it" idea going around and understandably there are many wary thoughts toward it. A recent article in The Economist outlines Starbucks' practices. I will post the article for you to read if you wish.
David Barrar: The fact that Starbucks does not advertise their fair trade and humanitarian practices has two sides to it - on the one hand I admire their "silence" on the matter because it shows they are not out for the glory but just to make a difference where they can, with or without praise. But on the other hand it does raise a fair deal of suspicion. I advertise my company as a fair trade coffee company and we are very transparent regarding these things which has proved to be very helpful. Maybe Starbucks should consider a campaign outlining their good deeds?!? As for your comments about the African communities; I have seen first hand the work Starbucks has done in many African communities including the building of schools, bridges, hospitals, washing stations etc.
That's all for now. I will try reply to the other comments soon.
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magster
Member
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# Posted: 19 May 2007 20:55
Thanks, everyone, for taking the time to be engaged in this discussion. I haven't seen the movie yet, just got here while I was doing some research on the the U.S. partner of the Fair Trade Labeling Organization, TransFairUSA. I have lived and worked in Ethiopia as a teacher and a nurse, and seen first hand the devastation of ridiculously low purchasing prices of coffee that farmers are struggling to live with. Many survive by using environmentally abusive practices, because they have no choice, other by growing drugs (chat) instead of coffee. I've also travelled in Nicaragua and spent time at Miraflor which is a wilderness/organic agriculture preserve, subsidized by the Nicaraguan government and outside NGOs who are trying to promote ecotourism in the area. It is so very important to support, by our own coffee purchases, the activities of places like Miraflor and the efforts of small family farms.
Wherever you buy coffee, Starbucks or otherwise, I think it's great to contintue to do what most of you already seem to do which is engage the workers/owners/managers in discussions about fair trade. Do they know their growers personally? If not, why not? Are they unaware of where they can buy coffee direct from growers? If so, give them information (Transfair has a list of importers that are fair trade certified, for example. If you don't like the offficial Fair Trade process, though I think it is an excellent way to empower farmers, then give them other information on how to buy responsibly...ask Sarah for resources). And then, tell them to advertise their practices!! Yes, they should do their part to help raise awareness of consumers! On this note, I don't know enough about the specifics of Starbuck's operating practices to make an argument for or against what they're doing. But I can say that:
1) Above all they are a corporation, answering to their stockholders who, above all, want to make a profit. If they are "silent" on the matter of their "humanitarian practices" I am quite sure that this is well-orchestrated and for very specific reasons, not the affable quality of a gentle, humble giant. No doubt they have some of the best of the best business advisors and marketing experts on their team, and it is not "humility" that keeps them silent on this issue. By the way, in several Starbucks I've been in, they DO have brochures stacked up by the cream/sugar printed on pretty brown recycled-looking paper with a smiling farmer on the cover extolling their accomplishments in the little communities of 'farmers like this one.' So, rest assured, they do their part to brighten their image.
2) Speaking of those "accomplishments," and in reference to some of the projects you mentioned, Sarah, about schools, bridges, etc...I don't trust that empowerment and wellbeing for the local farmers and community is at the root of these things. All kinds of slimy organizations build schools and clinics to cover up their real aims, and the cost of these infrastructure projects are minute compared to what these organizations/companies gain by having virtually total control over the resources of the community. Though I haven't seen the movie yet, I love that the trailer includes the line "we are far more interested in trade than aid." The World Bank/IMF is a perfect example of an institution that pretends to be about poverty eradication while still managing to remain paternalistic and in control of the communities they say they're helping, while saddling the poor with more debt and the obligationt to jump when the IMF says jump... I am not saying that Starbucks is or isn't this kind of organization, but don't be fooled just because they do some public works projects. It's the oldest trick in the book, and it often promotes dependence...not empowerment and increased financial stability for the poor.
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feriosvides
Member
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2007 18:24
I don't think Starbucks is a fair trading company. My family owns a coffee
farm in Guatemala and Starbucks comes here to ask for a lot of things from us. They want us to pay better salaries to the workers. They want us to have air conditioning for the workers. My mother responded and told them, "We don't have air conditioning in our homes." My family struggles with the coffee business. Sometimes they don't have enough money to pay the workers and these guys that are billionaires come asking for a lot of things and they don't even pay a fair price. In their ads they say "OUR COFFEE." It´s not their coffee, It's Guatemalan coffee. They also sell Guatemalan coffee as ANTIGUA COFFEE, and it´s not Antigua coffee. Most of the coffee that these guys get is from HUEHUETENANGO. Antigua is a nicer colonial city, and that´s the reason they sell it as Antigua. It angers me to see all these guys drnking our coffee without paying a fair price. I hate to see all this exploitation of our countries. One day this is going to change. One more thing, Starbucks claims to have social responsability. They do some public projects. You sould see the low quality of their projects. Congratulations to the filmmakers for raising awarteness of this gigantic problem.
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feriosvides
Member
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2007 18:29
Ms. Sarah Robinson sees things from her American fantasy world. Americans always live in lala land. She should come to one of our countries and see all the back breaking work our countries do to get peanuts from America and Europe.
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caitlyn14
Member
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# Posted: 25 Jul 2007 17:02
feriosvides
Ms Sarah Robinson does not see things from "her american fantasy world". If you can see, she lives in South Africa. So I don't see why that has anything to do with her being American?
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supotchun
Member
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# Posted: 26 Jul 2007 10:30
It is not just Starbucks, for me, that are campaigning about the 'good deeds' they have done with fair trade coffees. I have seen with my own eyes in several coffee shops around the world the advertisements and information available for customers about their 'fair trade' coffees. That's my observation.
Another thing I would like to be added to the movie is the sustainability aspect.
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KevinSherry
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jul 2007 03:38
I happen to be a commodities' trader, but think this film is fantastic. A point that i think is being missed here is that Blackgold, combined with Oxfam's public campaign have raised public awareness to a high enough level that Starbucks has been forced to act. In my local Starbucks in manhattan, they finally have fair trade brochures! It is the passion of all of those involved in the Fair Trade campaign that have spurred developments like the building of schools in Ethiopia. A public corporation will only perform social development projects if it is in their financial interest to do so...which is exactly what is happening. The more awareness that is raised among consumers, the more Starbucks has to fund these social projects.
Ultimately, social justice will only exist when the powerful are given the incentives to exploit less. Activism is essential for that to happen.
And we need more of it in the world...dare i say that the exploitation is much worse in other commodities like gold or oil. Keep up the good work b/c things won't change unless we do.
And on a side note, i must admit that i disagree with the film's portrayal of the traders on the exchanges. We are not the bad guys!
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chadmorton4
Member
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# Posted: 6 Aug 2007 03:08
interesting stuff. my community is just starting a coffee company that cuts out the middle man, and returns the profit into the coffee farmers community, trying to empower them through profits, education, micr-financing, etc...i am trying to educate myself! working on our website and promo material, but for starters... http://www.myspace.com/evocoffee
feriosvides: how can i get ahold of you directly? our first farmer is in san avelina, guatemala and he only produces 2000lbs/year. we are looking for other farmers that understand our mission.
any other farmers from around the world? we are looking for indian, african, etc...you can leave messages through the myspace page to my attention... chadmorton4
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4walls
Member
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# Posted: 15 Oct 2007 06:33
Sarah Robinson
Excellent posts Sarah. It is obvious when someone intelligent comments on forums like this and it is unfortunate that the inevitable flaming occurs shortly afterwards. Keep up the good work.
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Buddy012
Member
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2007 05:08
neat discusion peeps, and i hope your evo coffee does well chad.
alls i have to say is that isupport the fair trade plea because this is what should be. as for corperations go, Kevin makes a great point, money is there only interest, which is completely near sighted, where as fair trade appears to not be.
we as the many have to evolve our way of thinking and living, on our own, if we want to see change, because the markets are driven by the consumers...us!
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pepperfire
Member
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2007 23:16 - Edited by: pepperfire
I know for a fact that regardless of how small Starbucks' Fair Trade Certified output is, it is still Canada's largest Certified Fair Trade coffee producer.
That said...
I have one question for Ms. Robinson. If Starbucks is so concerned about the cost to the farmer for his fair trade certification, why not simply pay the fee and get certified? For the $178 per lb Starbucks makes at the counter, one could certainly see the penny or two per cup used to pay the farmer's fees. You are either committed to Fair Trade Certification or you aren't. If you aren't, why pretend to the world that your unmonitored "fairly traded" coffee is equivalent? It isn't.
You claim that the reason Starbucks doesn't get certified is because of the high cost to the farmer, then you claim that Starbucks pays a much higher price to the farmers than the Fair Trade minimum anyway.
Why not simply lower the price paid to the farmer and absorb their Flo-cert fees?
Tina Brooks, VP Marketing
Brooks Pepperfire Foods
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woodytpc
Member
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# Posted: 18 Mar 2008 15:43
starbucks only have 1 fair trade certified coffee which is estima blend. if any 1 read the leaflets in the store you will find all they coffees are "fairly traded" which means they pay above market price for them. after watching the film i cannot be sure whether these prices are accurate or used just to say they are doing something well.
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sootysoutter
Member
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# Posted: 24 Mar 2008 21:56
Ms Sarah Robinson - nice to hear an alternative view on these issues. I no next to nothing about coffee and starbucks, I have some experience of sugar though and I can see how some of the things you say correlate with my experiences. One contradictory point though (and appologies if this is due to a time difference between now and your post!) - I picked up some leaflets in starbucks which confirm "not all fair trade" though you said it is - do you mean 'fairly traded' or certified fair trade?
I'm researching writing work on Fair Trade right now, I'd really appreciate it if I could email you a few questions about the coffe trade as you have a differennt (and thus a little refreshing) view to so many. I'm not saying i agree, but informed commentary is good :)
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cjh
Member
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# Posted: 2 Apr 2008 16:22
I am actually confused by the documentary.
I started buying Fair Trade about 10 years ago and had read an article around the same time stating Starbucks had set up education programs in Costa Rica and other South American coffee regions at that time.
According to the website they do similar in Ethopia and Sumatra. So I don't get who's telling the truth.
I am not inclined to believe anyone until all info has been sifted through.
Also 3 bucks for coffee is no big deal for coffee.
I was in Australia in 1995/96 and any coffee was 3 bucks.
In Portugal 7 years ago - $3 or higher. Austria is even higher (up to 10 bucks) and none of this is starbucks.
Illy was the most common in Portugal. But brands vary throughout...
I know we love to slam big corporations but are all the facts in?
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Sarah Robinson
Member
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# Posted: 9 Apr 2008 07:07
Thank you for all the positive and negative comments on my comments and opinions. It is so good that we are able to engage in these types of discussions. It is crucial that we debate the validity of fair trade claims and all that it entails. There are many things I am formulating for a proper reply to many of these posts which I will complete shortly. In the mean time, Feriosvidas claims I base my opinions on the assumption that I am America. I would like to clarify that I am NOT American or British. I was born and rasied in South Africa and I am an African. I have had the privilege to travel extensively which has included long stays in countries like the US, Canada, and the UK, but my home is in South Africa. My travels have also taken me to countries like Malawi, Tanzania, Ethiopia, Kenya, Mexico, Colombia, and others. My views are based on my experience and the time I have spent both working in the coffee industry world-wide and the research I have done. I am always very careful not to blindly make rash statements about controversal issues such as this. When I make a comment, I have thought it through, analysed it, assesed its validity, and done my best to back it up. However, I am always open to criticism and opposition, both of which I appreciate so long as it is backed up either by fact or experience. So please don't assume that I am something I am not, such as an American, and please don't assume that Americans live in your so-called "la-la land" because most of them don't and most of them have a lot of very good things to say and add to this discussion.
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Sarah Robinson
Member
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# Posted: 13 Apr 2008 05:16
I have received several requests for my e-mail address so members can forward me questions directly. My address is sarah@beanthere.co.za . Please feel free to contact me with any questions and comments you may have.
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Sarah Robinson
Member
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# Posted: 13 Apr 2008 05:52
Now for some replies to the posted comments:
CJH: The whole fair trade project can be quite confusing as there are a lot of ways to be a part of fair trade and a lot of ways to represent fair trade. However, it is generally not represented in the final consumer price for a cup of coffee. The price per cup is generally determined by local market forces and not the global price for green beans. Does this make sense? In other words, what you pay for your americano at your local coffee shop is often not indicative of fair trade premiums or scandal as such. That price is determined by the owner of the local coffee shop according to the local market and demand. I certainly agree with you that all the facts are not in. It is impossible to make blanket assumptions about the industry and there really needs to be a case by case analysis done in order to grasp the commonalities of the industry.
SOOTYSOUTTER: Thanks for the comment. To clarify my earlier statement about Starbucks and fair trade: not all Starbucks coffee is CERTIFIED FAIR TRADE but it is ALL FAIRLY TRADED. There is not enough certified fair trade coffee available to meet Starbucks' requirements and currently Starbucks purchases the majority of certified fair trade coffee available. However, which ever coffee they purchase, from whatever region, is purchased in a fair trade manner, hence "fairly traded". The complexities and difficulties around certification have in many ways enhanced the coffee market, but they have also made it more difficult for the very small coffee farmers around the world. To add to this, the main certifying fair trade body, FLO, is also run by human beings which means it has its share of corruption embedded in its practices. All this is to say that there are many ways of trading fairly without working through certified fair trade bodies.
TINA BROOKS (Pepperfire): I have attempted to answer part of your question in the answer posted above. Your points are certainly valid and I have spent some time considering them. I don't know why Starbucks doesn't pay for the farms to get certified, and I won't pretend that I do know. Logically it would make sense that they should help out in that regard. All I can say in regard to this would be from my perspective as a green coffee buyer for my company. Although FLO certification does add a lot of good to the industry, I also see it as somewhat of an unnecessary expense, almost a wasteful expense. I do think they do a lot of good and have helped raise awareness of fair trade etc, but at the same time I see them as a huge administrative body with many expenses of their own to cover and I'm not sure if I want my small farmers to have to contribute to that. I know that I am implying some very controversial things here, and I am not trying to stir the pot or add another subject to this already heated debate. Just as an example: I was in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, last year for the EAFCA conference on African coffee. I noticed how the delegation from FLO stayed in the most expensive hotel in the city while the smaller purchasers etc stayed in the dodgiest hotels in the city. Granted this is a vague and stretching example and assumption, but it was something that I noticed and it made me feel a little uncomfortable about it all. Anyway, another reason why I would not pay for a farmer to get certified is that this is TRADE and not AID. It is very tempting to pay for every need our farmers have, from fertilizers to education for their children, but we are not in the industry of aid, we are in the industry of trade, fair trade, and for that reason alone I would be reluctant to just cough up the pennies required. One of our biggest goals is to see our farmers work toward these things on their own, with our help through fair trade, but generally by their own steam and own motivation.
4WALLS: Thanks for the encouragement!
KEVIN SHERRY: Excellent post. I agree that so much of this is determined by the consumer and that it is partly our responsibility to call to account the actions of those who purchase on our behalf. And as you say, there are plenty more industries facing these exact problems and worse! And I'm sure not all commodity traders are bad guys!!??!!
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WonkyRuler
Member
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# Posted: 15 May 2008 13:45
Hi everyone,
I completely agree with Bluesamboy! Starbucks is no where near as bad as some of the larger companies, so i really don't understand what the big problem with Starbucks is. And if there really isn't enough certified fair trade coffee available then Starbucks can't really be blamed for the fact not all their coffee is CERTIFIED FAIR TRADE.
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WonkyRuler
Member
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# Posted: 15 May 2008 13:46 - Edited by: WonkyRuler
Hi there,
I completely agree with Bluesamboy! Starbucks is no where near as bad as some of the larger companies, so i really don't understand what the big problem with Starbucks is. And if there really isn't enough certified fair trade coffee available then Starbucks can't really be blamed for the fact not all their coffee is CERTIFIED FAIR TRADE.
label printing
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heather
Member
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# Posted: 16 Oct 2008 23:26
Thank you Sarah for your well written sensible comments.
I have been a purchaser of fair-trade goods right from the beginning of the scheme and it has always made me feel quite good about myself as I felt I was doing something positive to help farmers and felt that if everybody were to do the same it would go a small way to righting the inequalities that exist in the world.
I watched Black Gold for the first time tonight and have gone straight onto this website to see what more I can do, thinking that to boycott Starbucks would be one of the most obvious.
Thanks to Sarah I now see that there is another side to fair-trade and of course she is right. Most schemes to help the poor and exploited are generally set up with the best intentions, and fair- trade is of course a prime example of this. To make sure the scheme is running properly rules must be enforced, but to enforce rules people need to be employed to check nobody is exploiting the situation. Trust goes out of the window as more layers of bureaucracy lead to people becoming less innovative and instead of improving the situation overall, people just become more dependant and weighed down with more and more red tape. Checks put in place to check on checks etc.
Starbucks seem to have been made into a scapegoat and although I have no allegiance to the company it seems that they are being unfairly treated in this instance. (or perhaps any publicity is good publicity, even bad)
I want to help farmers everywhere to get a fair price for what they produce, and I certainly don't want to put money into the hands of companies that exploit anybody. So what can an ordinary consumer do?
I am sure that the film has had the opposite effect on me than the makers anticipated. I have never before questioned the principle of fair-trade. However, I think I will stop my blind adherence to the fair-trade label and will certainly be questioning the principle from now on.
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