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Kyle Glanville
Member
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2006 22:57
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I saw the film in Seattle, and was truly disheartened by the audience's reaction to it. The film's characterization of the global coffee trade was oversimplified and sometimes way off the mark.
Geoff Watts of Chicago's Intelligentsia Coffee has some much better ideas about how we can make things work on LA Green GIrl's blog. click here
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green la girl
Member
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2006 08:15 - Edited by: green la girl
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Kyle -- I haven't been fortunate enough to see the film yet, but I'm not surprised to hear that the film format can seem v. oversimplistic to activists.
I think that Geoff's comments -- which is actually on my own blog -- lends some great details about the coffee issues (BTW, it's green LA girl (greenlagirl.com), not LA Green Girl, though whatev). That said, I think it's really tough for any one piece -- whether it be film, a radio piece, or a print article -- to fully discuss all the nuances of the v. complicated ins and outs of the global coffee trade.
I guess I'm saying that I'm glad a film like Black Gold's out there. The film certainly is not the end all, but it clearly seems like a great tool for getting more people to become conscious of the issues surrounding their fave morning brew --
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michela
Member
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2006 21:54
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It's a film not a textbook. I saw it today and thought that it did a good job introducing a complex issue to the mainstream. Well done. Of course it's not the whole truth and Kyle, your comment could have been more constructive .
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RichW
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2006 00:07
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Michela,
Kyle is a well-respected barista working daily with some of the best coffees in the world - ones that are typically acquired from farmers at equitable prices far above prevailing Fair Trade rates. I understand precisely what he's saying, but that's mostly because I understand the shorthand.
Kyle, his peers and his employers are actively doing important work in trying to change the public's perception of coffee. To put it another way regarding respect for both the food value chain and the consumer, Folgers/Maxwell House is McDonald's, Starbucks in Olive Garden, Kyle is Chez Panisse.
He was EXTREMELY constructive in pointing to Green LA Girl's blog. If you visit and read the post there from Geoff Watts you will understand.
I am seeing the movie on the 10th in Pittsburgh, with the added benefit of attending a talk about the movie by Peter Giuliano, top dude at Counter Culture Coffee, another of the industry's white hats.
From all I've heard from other trusted sources in the coffee industry, audience reaction might be characterized as "all coffee outlets are bad, send them all to the gallows!". Peter, Geoff Watts, Duane Sorensen, the guys at Novo (sorry guys for forgetting your names) and many others are doing tremendous things at origin that respect the farms, the growers, the pickers, the community, the crop and the consumer. It's not a hopeless situation. If you read Geoff's post, you will hopefully come away with the idea that we live in amazing world where your choices as to what you drink can directly make a difference to a family 10,000 miles away.
And for the record, yes, we sell Geoff's coffee.
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Charlie M
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2006 03:33
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From looking at Intelligentsia's website it appears that only a few of their coffees - those classified as 'Direct Trade' are subject to fulfilling ONE of the criteria for Fair Trade Certified coffees,the price, with the promise to pay 25% above Fair Trade Certified prices for these offerings classed 'Direct Trade' The rest of their offerings the consumer has no way of knowing what conditions or price they were bought for.
The chief executive of Intelligentsia is Doug Zell. Mr. Zell underwrites the $150,000 to $200,000 annual cost of Mr. Watts's seven months of travel each year in coffee-growing countries. Mr. Watts was in Nicaragua to introduce this new approach, which mandates direct dealings with farmers and LIMITS the role of the cooperatives that currently market most Nicaraguan coffee. I believe a consumer buying coffee should look for the Fair Trade Certified label on the package which guarantees that the coffee by contrast offers not only a minimum price but long term contracts between cooperatives and importers, and precrop financing.
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RichW
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2006 04:19
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Charlie,
Fair Trade Certified is fine for people who only care about that particular issue.
But that certification has little to do with quality in the cup, which is what better coffeehouses look for.
Personally, I'll go with the the Intellys, Counter Cultures, Stumptowns, Novos, et. al. because I do know they're on the ground working with growers on hosts of issues related to growing, processing, distribution and marketing - and some issues unrelated to coffee (building schools/providing healthcare).
Take your pot shots at Geoff et. al. from your comfy chair of moral superiority. But at the end of the day, they've got a better model for true sustainability - producing coffee that people WANT to pay more for because it's good enough to warrant the price.
Nobody's saying Fair Trade isn't worthwhile or that it shouldn't be done. But there are a growing number of quality roasters that are aiming much higher. Why try to bring them back down to the level of lowest common denominator?
Hell, Wal-Mart is in the Fair Trade game. If that's your idea of quality, enjoy.
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Peter G
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2006 21:45
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Having worked in the coffee industry for 20 years, I must say my first reaction to the film was just like Kyle's. I felt that the whole coffee industry had been attacked, and I felt that they had failed to capture the whole story. Fact is, there are a small but growing number of responsible coffee people who are doing their best to help change the coffee industry, and right some of the injustices that the post-colonial commercial coffee trade has perpetuated.
Since then, I have spoken to Marc and Nick Francis, and I have reflected on my own reaction to the coffee industry after I began traveling in coffee origin.
In particular, I remember a time when I returned from a few weeks spending time with coffee farmers in Nicaragua. I flew directly to Las Vegas for a coffee conference, and I was immediately sickened by the contrast. At that moment, the coffee industry, and indeed our whole consumer culture, seemed horrible and corrupt. I realize that this contrast is part of what Black Gold documents.
Of course, if we stop consuming coffee altogether, or consume less coffee overall, countries like Ethiopia are in real trouble. The answer, to me, is to work to build a different, better coffee industry, one that is built on a foundation of true sustainability and equity. This new paradigm must be capable of delivering real profits to coffee farmers, not the incremental differentials offered by most current systems.
The only way we can get there, in my view, is to continue pushing the upper limits of quality, so that consumers happily pay the $2 and $3 and $5 per cup it really takes to make the coffee industry truly sustainable. It shouldn't be a big deal, really... I see folks popping for $13 cocktails all the time!!
Meanwhile, we need to continue showing folks the faces of those who produce coffee, and doing our best to talk about the places where coffee comes from. In my view, Black Gold does a great job of that.
Myself, I look forward to Black Gold II, which will show the early days of the truly sustainable, producer-oriented coffee trade, where coffees are sold by farm and co-op name, baristas and farmers are communicating regularly with quality in the cup as a mutual goal, and coffee farmers are truly realizing the benefits of their labors.
Peter G
p.s. Charlie, I can see you are an advocate for the Fair Trade Certified (tm) label, and I assume this is your motivation for attacking Intelligentsia's Direct Trade program. I am a coffee buyer by trade (for Counter Culture Coffee), and because of this I know what Intelligentsia is buying. Let me tell you: aside from the very large proportion of their total supply that comes through their Direct Trade program, they still are committed to extraordinarily high prices and sustainability for ALL their coffees, even those for which they have not yet established a direct relationship.
I happened to be with Geoff in Nicaragua when he introduced Direct Trade, and it is very clear that it does not LIMIT the role of the co-op, it simply DEFINES it, just as it defines the roles of producer, importer, and roaster.
You're right, prefinancing and long-term contracts are very important. Are you sure they are guaranteed by Fair Trade Certified? You might want to check your facts there.
pg
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Charlie M
Member
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2006 06:14
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No offense but those companies who actively disparage the Fair Trade Certified model , I just read about Mr. Watts commenting to the Financial Times
"I've seen falsification in Peru and in other countries," says Geoff Watts of Intelligentsia Coffee, a premium roaster in Chicago that recently stopped working with Fairtrade. Mr Watts was one of the few people who spoke to the FT on the record about the issue. FLO Cert, a body officially independent of FLO, monitors the certification process. Critics say there is a need for an outside auditor. "The way Fairtrade promotes itself is a little irresponsible," says Mr Watts. "The certifiers need an external watchdog."
Fine and now the question
DOES INTELLIGENTSIA BUY COFFEE AT LESS THAN THE FAIR TRADE CERTIFIED PRICE OF $1.41/LB for Organic? Spell it out for us - What are the specific conditions of all your contracts? I'm skeptical because I'm sure such experienced marketing writers wouldn't miss the opportunity to state that if it were so. Anyway all I'm saying is those that disparage the Fair Trade Certified model yet base their own 'Fair Trade' models on the Fair Trade Certified price has better be prepared to answer specific price related questions from consumers and how they relate to Fair Trade Certified coffee.
HI Peter
I hope your screening of Black Gold went well,
I do have to question companies that don't spell out exactly what or what they don't pay, the only reference to pricing with Intelligentsia is referencing their Direct Trade coffees which sell for $3.00/lb more than their blends for example thus leading me to question the fact that such a small proportion of their coffees are subject to their Direct Trade criteria.
4. Pricing and Premium
4.1 Buyers shall pay producer organizations at least the Fairtrade minimum price as set by FLO
(see the price table further below). The Fairtrade minimum prices vary according to the type
and origin of the coffee.
4.2 In addition to the Fairtrade minimum price the buyers shall pay a Fairtrade premium as set by
FLO at 5 US$-cents per pound of coffee.
4.3 For certified organic coffee an additional premium of 15 US$-cents per pound green coffee
will be due, on top of the Fairtrade minimum price or the market reference price respectively
as determined under point 4.4.
4.4 If the market price is higher than the Fairtrade minimum price, the market price shall apply.
The Fairtrade premium is paid on top of the market price.
Payment shall be net cash against a full set of documents on first presentation. The documents to be
presented will be those stipulated in the contract and the ones customary in the coffee trade
5. Pre-financing/Credit:
· In the case of contracts with fixed prices the buyer shall make available up to 60% of the contract
value, on the request of the seller.
· In the case of unfixed prices the buyer shall make available up to 60% of the estimated contract
value on request of the seller, as long as buyer and seller agree upon a mechanism that guarantees
the contract value(s) will cover the pre-financing, e.g. by a 'stop/loss' clause. In the absence of
such a mechanism, seller is entitled only to request pre-financing of up to 60% of the FLOInternational
minimum price.
· Pre-finance must allow access for producer organizations to cash in order to buy from their
members. The payment instruments (cash, L/C Red Clause, etc.) will be arranged in the contract,
by mutual agreement.
· In principle the pre-finance is meant for the first-level organizations, but in practice it is linked to
the contracting parties (the sellers and the buyers). If the exporter is not a member of the register
he will receive the pre-finance, but beforehand the exporter and the FLO-CR partner organization
have to agree upon the handling of the pre-financing money and the fulfilment of the contract.
· In case of several shipments the spread of the pre-finance must be fixed in the contracts. It is not
always necessary to pre-finance the whole amount before the first shipment. Pre-finance must be
adapted to the real needs of the producer organization.
· If an importer requires the extension of the shipment schedule beyond the limits of sound
commercial practice of the producer organization (three months after the harvest), the real costs of
storage, interest and insurance must be covered (by the importer) in the terms of the contract. This
rule is not applicable for those organizations in whose respective countries exist specific export
regulations which make the above unworkable.
And I don't think the need is for consumers to pay more for their coffee, just roasters and importers before the current price collapse in 1999 coffee traded at far above the current Fair Trade Certified price.
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john o riordan
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 00:29
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I have an idea to revolutionise fair trade.' let every distributor in the devoloped world collect a little extra cash for all third world farm products . then hand over this extra money to fair trade organations.this would make all these products fair trade thus collecting a lot more than the present set up and better for the small producer and small distributor in other words fairtrade all round posted by John o riordan' coffee distributor 24/3/2008
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john o riordan
Member
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2008 00:30
Reply
I have an idea to revolutionise fair trade.' let every distributor in the devoloped world collect a little extra cash for all third world farm products . then hand over this extra money to fair trade organations.this would make all these products fair trade thus collecting a lot more than the present set up and better for the small producer and small distributor in other words fairtrade all round posted by John o riordan' coffee distributor 24/3/2008
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Caitlin
Member
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# Posted: 9 Mar 2009 21:15
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Charlie,
As someone actively researching the benefits of Fair Trade (tm) versus direct trade models, and the knowledge of coffee consumers in general, I feel like I should probably point out a few of Fair Trade's flaws. I am actually a proponent of both Fair Trade and direct trade practices.
First and foremost, it is important to note that under FLO, there are certifications for Fair Trade retailers, but also for the producers themselves. That causes a few problems.
1) the price of Fair Trade certification is frequently prohibitive for potential participant cooperatives.
There is an initial certification fee, and then a lower, annual re-certification fee. The fees are dependent on the size of the cooperative. While any label must have standards, and staff to execute certification of these standards, there is something of a chicken and egg paradox here. You have to be able to afford certification in order to receive the higher price.
2) depending on the size of the cooperative, the result could be that the fee required to become certified actually makes certification less profitable. In other words, smaller cooperatives do not have the capacity to produce sufficient coffee to cover the fees.
I conducted some research with a cooperative in Guatemala where this was the case. They were aware of all certification requirements for both Fair Trade and organic labels, and met them. However, they were unable to afford the certification fee, and were actively looking for a funding source. They knew that in the long run, they would be able to cover the re-certification costs, but that the initial fees were prohibitively high.
Now, to address your concerns with direct trade. While it is possible that some direct traders may simply be doing so to avoid the premium they'd otherwise pay for Fair Trade, most are not. Those with whom I have spoken see direct trade as a means of further increasing farmer profits, while emphasizing the relationship between roaster and grower. These practices benefit cooperatives like the one I spoke of earlier, as they would be receiving more money, and would perhaps in time be able to afford the certification fees and then would be able to branch out to Fair Trade retailers as well as direct traders.
I spent two months with Tadesse and his union, talking to union staff as well as farmers about Fair Trade and their participation therein. None wish they were not participating, but all wished it was easier to do so. Because of market demand issues, only 29 of Tadesse's 130 cooperatives are certified Fair Trade, but the remaining 101 meet all of the certification requirements, as the union looks long term to be able to certify them all. In the mean time, however, they operate a diversified portfolio of Fair, direct, and conventionally traded coffee.
As an economist, I should point out that when we examine markets, we assume a perfect world. This is no different from the average individual when they complain that there are problems with markets. The bottom line is, there will always be problems. Markets are never perfect, nor has there, to date, been a perfect solution. Fair and direct trade models are simply two ways to address a growing concern, and neither is perfect.
All the best,
CW
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matiano_9
Member
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2009 16:40
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Caitlin,
After reading your response I was wondering roughly how much it costs to get fairtrade certification, could you provide a ball park figure?
Mat
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Caitlin
Member
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2009 01:09
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Sure. FLO has a separate certification body, called FLO-CERT GMBH. They certify both producers and traders, and have varying types of certification for producers. For a grade 1 small-farmer group of less than 50 farmers, there is an initial certification fee of 1400 euros. These fees increase as population in the certified group increases. There are also follow up inspection fees of 400 euros per day, with inspections conducted based on need.
Here's the link to the various types of producer certifications and all the requirements/fees for them:
http://www.flo-cert.net/flo-cert/main.php?id=29
Best,
Caitlin
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